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Is forgiveness dead in the water?

Hi, I've just watched the video of last Thursday's session on the Four Immeasurables. And as I'm taking in a lot more than when I was actually there, it's given me time to ponder:

If loving kindness or wishing well arises from an unconditional, egoless place of emptiness, does this mean that the act of forgiveness is essentially ego-driven? Because do we not grace people our forgiveness? Can anyone expound on this for me? I'm twisting my brain-knickers into trying to understand.

Hopeful thanks!

T x

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Alistair Appleton

My pleasure. And I now - by virtue of recognising the dog - I realise who Trev is. Are you flying under the radar? 😀🌊😀

Trev

59m

Antwort an

Hah, no! Well, no more than usual ...

The name arose from brainstorming the "if you could change your name, what would you call yourself" question.

It's part of a much longer and older story, and of the level of interesting that should we ever find ourselves stuck in a lift together, that would be its moment to shine. Right after rating flavour of crisps on a scale of one to ten. 😃😎

Thanks again, Alistair!

T x

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Alistair Appleton

18h

hi there Trev,

Thanks for your interesting question and I hope that I can help untwist your knickers. I am however a little unclear about these exact nature of your question. Are you asking whether forgiveness is selfish, that is to say, ego driven?or are you saying that ultimately when the ego is removed there’s no need for for forgiveness?

If we conceive a forgiveness as letting go of judgement or hurt or a sense of ill treatment, then this would make sense. When we’re coming from a less centralised , story-driven point of view then the issue of wrongdoing or being hurt or harmed becomes less intensely felt. Therefore, it’s easier to let that narrative go and “forgive“.

Of course, ultimate loving kindness – that is to say, free from the self that does the loving and the kindness – is often beyond our reach. Therefore, we can be compassionate for those parts of us that are not able to wish people well. Particularly those who have harmed us. So when we failed to forgive, it’s a cause for compassion rather than beating ourselves up for not being free of ego.

Does that help at all?

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Trev

Antwort an

Yes, yes, and yes! Thank you!

Sorry it wasn't clear, I think I was trying to answer my own question as I typed. Typing out loud.

It arose from a conversation in which I'd been explaining what we'd covered in the last session, and they said, perhaps to head me off, "So it's about forgiveness."

And I'm all stumped. Because I felt that it was, but it also wasn't. To forgive, in my interpretation, comes from a first place of injury to the self or those you care about. So it's an act of self-interest. It may or may not make the perpetrator feel better, but it definitely makes us feel better. And while wishing ourselves well is a big ol' Buddhist thumbs-up, it's not in the spirit of genuine forgiving if that's the sole reason for it, surely?

But if there is no narrative, if we stop clinging to the story and step aside, then forgiving is kind of redundant. Or it feels that way to me. It becomes purely a noun and not a verb. A side effect, rather than an action. Is this right?

Looping round to today: forgiveness would arise when we look to move from bad to better so, stripping it back, this defines it as metta, no?

Sorry, if all this is obvious. Just needed to organise my mental book shelf.

T x

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